Thursday, November 16, 2006

Schizophrenic description #4

Gail's description of an everyday object:
"elecko oo points and hook zeez. I car star z . Her who holes owes. Down on up out in on son. One day shay say day d"

Now guess what everyday object she described.




[Gail, a schizophrenic patient,
looking closely into the camera.]



Please read the Introduction and its comments section before you begin.

151 comments:

in_college said...

Something with an electrical plug. A battery recharger?

Canopenner said...

This time Ill go with an umbrella.

flic said...

in college- Nice guess! A very good one, actually. But it's not a battery recharger. (Nor is it the set of battery jumper cables used for charging a car battery! Nor is it a battery of any kind!)

canopenner- Nice one! Especially with the "down, up, out" in the description. But no, it's not an umbrella.

Canopenner said...

How about a pair of sunglasses?

flic said...

canopenner- Another good guess! But no, not a pair of sunglasses, either.

carrie said...

i'm gonna guess a needle or a sewing machine.

Good for Me said...

my first guess was also an umbrella - glad i checked the comments first :).

a coat hanger or a belt?

Jake said...

Vaccuum cleaner? Maybe an iron?

flic said...

carrie- Two very good guesses, carrie! But it's not a needle, or a sewing machine.

good for me- No, not a coat hanger. Nor a belt. Good ones, though.

jake- Hello there! Good guesses. But no vaccuum cleaner, or iron.







Give it another try!

good for me said...

flic - thanks for the psych winner info on my blog. for some reason it worked in the sidebar, but not in an actual post. got it though - thank you!

flic said...

good for me- The award looks great on you (there in your sidebar)!! And thanks very much for mentioning the Descriptions in your recent post. I appreciate that.

Jake said...

b'loon?

Oh its so hard without the crackup facials and waving arms!

Jake said...

dude, its so a toaster!

flic said...

jake- Two good guesses. Not a balloon. And not a toaster.

Matina said...

A key?

Matina said...

Oops--that was Leonard's object--never mind! Maybe a coin?

flic said...

matina- That's right, it's not a key this time.

But you bring up a good point:

All subsequent objects cannot be one that a schizophrenic patient has already had (e.g., Leonard's key. Therefore, now, all subsequent patients will not have a key as their object. In that sense, the object has been "taken" already.)

On the other hand, any objects that have been already guessed by bloggers in any previous Schizophrenic description posts (e.g., #1, #2, #3) are completely fair game to use again.

For example, "coin". Good for Me has already guessed "coin" in Description #2. It was not the answer for #2, but in may be the answer for a subsequent post, for example Description #4.

But in this case, no, it's not a coin.


Thanks Matina!!

Canopenner said...

Is it a button?

Not the kind Im used to pressing but like the sort on a shirt or a coat.

:^)

flic said...

canopenner- Nope. It's not a button.

carrie said...

paper clip

flic said...

carrie- Interesting. But no, it's not a paperclip.

Good for Me said...

a watch or a clock?

Good for Me said...

a fork?

/t. said...

calendar

/t.

flic said...

good for me and /t.- No, no, no, no. But taken all together... they are very good guesses.

Good for Me said...

Hope i'm on to something...a stapler?

Good for Me said...

or a staple remover?

flic said...

good for me- It's neither one.

HighlandAmy said...

This deffinetly sounds like knitting needles to me. Or a crochet needle. Either one.

Jake said...

viewmaster? a television? ipod/walkman type device?

Good for Me said...

strainer or a collander?

flic said...

highlandamy, jake, and good for me- None of the above.

carrie said...

Aaaaaargh! it's driving me crazy!!!!!!


Car?

Computer?

carrie said...

a window?

a door?

ScLeCo said...

remote control?

vagina?

is a vagina an everyday object?

flic said...

carrie- You're coming up with some good guesses! But it's not a car, a computer, a window, or door.

scleco- Welcome! No, it's not a remote control. And it's not a vagina (although, yes, I would say a vagina is an everyday object).

Although I should also say that the object Gail is describing is an inanimate object.

flic said...

Here is a list of particular objects that have already been mentioned that are somehow, in a very remote, out-of-the-way kind of way, distantly yet connectively related to the object that Gail is describing:

belt
key
button
watch
clock
calender
window
door
vagina

Also, take a look at the objects that were mentioned but that are not on this list.

Canopenner said...

Is it a blind? or a curtain?

flic said...

canopenner- Close, but no cigar.

Canopenner said...

How about a window?

flic said...

canopenner- A window? Now you're reaching. Carrie has already guessed that. It's even on the "hint" list.

Concentrate on Gail's description only, and keep whatever outside clues you gather in the background of your concentration.

Anonymous said...

A zippered wallet??..."her who holes owes" (she who holds the wallet pays :)

Flic- I did the experiment with my nephew :) I'll share~

I explained to J that we were going to play a describing game- we fished objects out of a bag and I asked him to describe each object as if he were telling a blind person what each thing looked like...

His answers were:
Fast, red wheels, smoke thing, black (Toy train)

White, spring silver on cutters, it cuts, the handle goes in and out (utility scissors with a spring)

You give it to someone. Silver, smooth, except for the bumps. Use it to unlock a car door and a house too. People have 6, or 5, or 89, or 8. (key)

Points up to ceiling, bounces up and down, up and down. Light helps me to see in the dark. Press button for off and on, on and off, on and off. Makes a circle on the ground (flashlight)

This helped me to understand a disorganized mind a little better- Mostly by looking at how clear J's answers were next to some you've posted here. I enjoyed hearing what the 4 yr old said- thought you might too :)

flic said...

mayden's voyage- Not a zippered wallet (or wallet or purse of any kind). Although I'd say your line of reasoning ["her who holes owes" (she who holds the wallet pays:)] is somewhat and vaguely on the right track!

And I'm glad that you actually tried the experiment! It's such a simple and yet on-target way to see the difference between those two minds: the organized and disorganized.

Notice your nephew even used (I'm presuming here of course) the correct colors when he used colors in his description.

Lots of times schizophrenics won't name color (with the exception of the colors black, white and sometimes red) directly in their descriptions, but they will describe the color in the most private of ways, without actually naming the color. Imagine that!

Anyway, you're a very intriguing woman, Mayden. Anyone who is willing to do and follow through with an experiment on their own family member is a more-than-welcome guest in my laboratory!

:)





-----------------------------------
For others:

To read the beginning of our conversation, click here and look down through the comments section.

good for me said...

a bandaid?

E said...

'Parking meter' or a 'vending machine'. On first thoughts it could have been a 'safety seat belt' or a 'child's car seat'. Guessing withuut reading the 'intro'...sort of 'native' skills to the test. This is very interesting though.

Jake said...

A book? Or a cup/plate/bowl?

flic said...

good for me- No, it's not a band-aid.

e- It's not a parking meter or a vending machine or a safety seat belt or a child's car seat. But you are in the general vicinity as far as the size of the object Gail described.

jake- No, it's not a book or a cup/plate/bowl. Although with one of your guesses here, you're very close.

jesse said...

diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia myself, now they're calling it schizoaffective disorder, but i would guess that these "patients" know you're recording their descriptions, and are obliquely skewing their descriptions. you know, the uncertainty principle.

flic said...

jesse- Hello and welcome! I should first say that it's important that you read the Introduction to the Schizophrenic Descriptions here. Please keep in mind that these patients here in this series on the blog are hebephrenic schizophrenics.

I don't know what you're doctor has been telling you, but hebephrenic schizophrenia is by no means the same as schizoaffective disorder. And paranoid schizophrenia is not just another name for schizoaffective disorder by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps you're involved with an HMO? They're notorious for miscommunicating information.

Anyway, schizoaffective disorder is essentially classified into two types: bipolar type and depressive type.

People with bipolar schizoaffective disorder might sometimes suffer from isolated episodes of manic psychotic symptoms. And the depressive type differs by way of the presence of cyclical periods of profound depression.

Of course, there are broad similarities between these two types of schizoaffective disorders and schizophrenia (hence the "schizo"). But because schizophrenia has such a wide-ranging (and debatable!) spectrum of symptoms, it's quite normal for those symptoms to be found in other mental illnesses, (symptoms such as auditory hallucinations, for example).

But sharing some symptoms is where the similarities end. One major difference between the two [schizoaffective disorder and hebephrenic schizophrenia in particular] is that schizoaffective disorder is more episodic, while hebephrenic schizophrenia is more permeated and on-going in the everyday existence of the sufferer.

In other words, you'll find schizoaffective disorder much more prevalent among the short-term outpatient population in hospitals compared to schizophrenia. And conversely, you'll find that schizophrenia is much, much more prevalent among the long-term inpatient population compared to the virtually non-existant schizoaffective disorder.

But you probably know all this already. It was just a matter of reading the Introduction before comparing apples with apple pie.

So come on out and have some fun! Make some guesses on what everyday object you think Gail has tried to describe!

We view tests here in the vein of projective psychology. That is, even if one is lying, or trying to evade, or even writing down nothing but a comma, it tells everyone something about that person's communicative effort and ability whether on the surface that effort and ability was "true" or not.

Everything that a person does is a reflection of who that person is -- nobody can hide from who they are to themselves or who they are to others! And perhaps unfortunately the two paths criss-cross, as the existentialists like to say.

(Side note: It's important to know that I'm not posting every single description that we have managed to get from the patients, only the ones that I feel are relatively communicative. And remember, I already know beforehand what everyday object is being described! I also know and have worked very closely with every one of the patients you will see posted here.)


-----------------------------------
P.(ost) S.(cript): Perhaps when you said, "diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia myself, now they're calling it schizoaffective disorder", you meant that you used to have paranoid schizophrenia but that now you have schizoaffective disorder?

Cherie! said...

Laundry machine? Top loader? Cooking range? Electric oven?

Good for Me said...

Flic - this is what I've been working from. Are you able to tell me if this is at all close?

Let go of points and hooks
car starts
holes holes
down on up out in on
shade [possible color reference to grey?]

/t. said...

"elecko oo points and hook z•••.
• ••• •••• • . Her who holes owes. Down on up out in •• •••. One day •••• say ••• d"

a kitchen/other cupboard door and/or drawer (that's two guesses, am not quite sure about my terminology)

flic,

i read this quote (following) with greatest interest -- you could say intense interest, as you put into words here something i have long felt/believed about the communicative power of art & poetry (think, 'abstract'), but have never been able to articulate

" We view tests here in the vein of projective psychology. That is, even if one is lying, or trying to evade, or even writing down nothing but a comma, it tells everyone something about that person's communicative effort and ability whether on the surface that effort and ability was "true" or not. "

substitute tests with art and you get the idea -- i know you're very busy, and this is not the forum, but i'd love to hear more about this subject, if you could

/t.

E said...

Garage door? Motorized.

flic said...

cherie!- It's none of these: laundry machine, top loader, cooking range, or electric oven. But you're on the right track, figuratively speaking.

Also, combine this with the hint(s) I give in Good For Me's reply below:

good for me- Line 1, will work. Line 2, is off, though remotely possible (in a "childish" kind of way). Line 3, spot on! (but there's more to it). Line 4, it happens. Line 5, yes, could be (although certain parts probably darker than grey).

e- Now garage door (even motorized) is too big.

Jake said...

sewing machine!

Jake said...

wups, sorry, nemmind that... how about... diary? paper (like a pad?)

flic said...

/t.- Hey, there! No, it's not a kitchen (or other) cupboard door or drawer. One of your guesses here could be seen to be bizarrely (and surreally) similar or akin to the object in question, though.

And as far as your interest in hearing more about the subject I touched on (and you referred to), I would be interested in talking more about it as well.

So, perhaps you could email me some set of questions or something in order to start a sort of interview or discussion regarding the subject matter.

Seriously, go ahead and do that.

Cheers!

flic

Mighty Dyckerson said...

Clearly we're talking about a vibrator here.

Good for Me said...

a dishwasher

carrie said...

a hole punch?

flic said...

carrie- Nope, it's not a hole punch.

good for me- No, it's not a dishwasher.

mighty dyckerson- And no, it's not a vibrator. But a good guess, though!

jake- That's right, it's not a sewing machine. And no, it's not a diary, or paper (like a pad). Although one of your guesses here is directly (yet indirectly and partially) connected to the object Gail has described.

flic said...

-----------------------------------
Okay, this is the home stretch.

So, here's a HINT:

Look closely at the following list of particular replies from me. And also read the person's comment whom I was replying to.

This will narrow down all the clues that you could concentrate on. Focus on the entries (and their comment counterparts) that are listed here:

a.-flic 10:52 AM (and the comment(s) I am replying to there).

b.-flic 6:16 AM (and the comment(s) I am replying to there).

c.-flic 3:55 PM (and the comment(s) I am replying to there).

d.-flic 12:41 PM (and the comment(s) I am replying to there).

Now you could look at those four (4) entries listed above (and their counterparts), and you'll soon get the answer!

Also, I'll give you this extra HINT:

There is almost a [very personal] story being told in Gail's description, a [very personal] story about using this particular object.

The main element of this everyday object is "hole".


Good luck!
-----------------------------------

Jake said...

a pen!

Jake said...

hole punch!

Jake said...

neeeeeedleeeee!!!!

(Sheesh! This thing is messing with MY mind too!)

Jake said...

a bookmark? doily? shelf? phone? card (eg birthday)? photograph?

I have to stop now, I've repeated just about everyone else's guesses!

E said...

Telephone receiver - wall mounted?

Cherie! said...

I would go with a music system (speakers?), recording device (cassette recorder?) or CD player.

flic said...

jake, e, and cherie!- None of the above.

flic said...

NOTICE:

-----------------------------------
Here are some more specific hints:
-----------------------------------

1. Look at the list of 9 words in comment "flic said...10:52AM".

2. You'll find the approximate size of the everyday object in my reply to "e", and also you'll see that the everyday object is akin to "bowl" in comment "flic said...6:16AM".

3. And finally, you'll see that the everyday object is directly yet indirectly connected to "paper" in my reply to "jake" in comment "flic said...12:41PM".

-----------------------------------

good for me said...

kitchen trash can

flic said...

good for me- It's almost a kitchen trash can.

/t. said...

"Her who holes owes.
Down on up out in on son.
One day... "

belt
key
button
[one of two parts where one is inserted into the other]
watch
clock
calender
[having to do with time]
window
door
vagina
[openings, entries]

"It's almost a kitchen trash can."

flic, if it's not a trash/litter can/box, then my guess is one of those coin-operated corner newspaper dispensers

/t.

carrie said...

garbage disposal

Cherie! said...

Photocopier?

Cherie! said...

Toilet seat?

Cherie! said...

Gail was describing being potty trained/ One day she said daddy?

Cherie! said...

Toilet paper / toilet bowl / hole / car seat - size / put the seat down , up and out ...unless it is a kitchen sink with an electric heater?

flic said...

/t.- Some very good figuring here. But not a coin-operated corner newspaper dispenser.

carrie- No, not a garbage disosal. Another good guess, though.

cherie!- And no, it's not a photocopier. Nor is it a kitchen sink with an electric heater. And not exactly a toilet seat -- but yes, she was somewhat "describing being potty trained/ One day she said daddy"...

flic said...

WE HAVE A WINNER!

Cherie! got the answer.

The answer is: a tiolet bowl.

Congratulations Cherie!!

Cherie! said...

Thank you although the drive/start a car (flush?) with two electric points hooked still escapes me I must confess....unless it was an overhead cistern thinggy :(

Good for Me said...

Phew! And good grief -- that one took a while! Congrats Cherie!

Flic, can you map out Gails words to match their meaning now that we know what she was describing? Perhaps this will help us to understand hebephrenic schizophrenic mind better.

flic said...

cherie! and good for me- Yes, this one was a tough one! Mainly because of the many private references embedded in the description....

flic said...

-----------------------------------
The interpretation of Gail's description gets a little messy here (excuse the pun) because of the nature of the object that was described.

"elecko oo points" is not a reference to electricity, but to Gail's preference to identify brand names with objects. She is giving a psuedo-name that resembles a brand name to the toilet.

The "hook zeez" is a reference to the action of actually pulling the lever down to flush the toilet.

And the "I car star z" is indeed an infantile expression of sitting on the toilet and making the appropriate noises associated with flatulance and moving one's bowels while sitting on the toilet -- like the sounds of starting and revving up a car. :)

"Her who holes owes" is again an infantile reference to being potty trained: "If you're on the toilet and all holes are open [i.e., toilet bowl lid is open and thus "hole" of toilet bowl is open, and also any bodily holes are open as well], then you better go (for you owe it to the situation) or else the whole action of attempting to move one's bowels is rendered a failure"

And then "Down on up out in on son" is a reference to the various accumulative (though not orderly) actions of sitting on the toilet, pulling the lid up, letting out bodily wastes, and wastes going into the toilet -- and then also a deep reference (i.e., "son") to Gail's personal family constellation tensions.

And finally, "One day shay say day d" is again a reference to Gail's remote past, where she mentions "daddy" and at the same time "shade" as being associated with the inside of the toilet itself, implying a sourse of protection and yet of derision.

An interpretation like this is only possible because of the extensive knowledge we have of Gail's personal history. But nonetheless, one can once again see the mixture of the personal and the universal at work here in the very linguistic structures of the communication.
-----------------------------------

Good for Me said...

hi flic - i just got back from visiting family for the holiday and the online situation there was a bit finicky. thanks for shring the info and insight into Gail's words, expressions, and meanings.

flic said...

good for me- You're very welcome. And I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving with your family.

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